Dịch hộ tôi với! Dễ mà khó!

Quoted from Brit:
Trời ạ, quả thật là Brit rất muốn khoá cái topic này lại rồi đấy. Mỗi ngày vào EC thường rất bình yên vậy mà cũng có lúc cãi nhau nảy lửa chẳng phải vì vấn đề gì to tác mà lại vì mấy cái cỏn con này có đáng không? Sao mọi người không biết nhường nhịn nhau 1 chút nhỉ? Bạn yeungon à, Brit sẽ trả lời PM của bạn vào đây để tất cả mọi người cùng hiểu luôn.
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Tôi cũng sẽ làm tương tự là trả lời trên diễn đàn cho mọi người cùng bình luận chứ khỏi phải nhọc công PM làm gì cho mệt.
1. Việc khoá topic hay không thì đó là quyền của Mod Brit, và tuỳ theo Mod thấy nó ''''''''nhạy cảm'''''''' đến đâu. Nhưng chỉ lưu ý Brit rằng Brit tham gia diễn đàn với tư cách vừa là Mod vừa là thành viên bình thường như chúng tôi thì hãy cố gắng phân biệt rạch ròi giữa hai vai trò đó nhé. Chuyện vừa đá bóng vừa thổi còi không phải là chuyện xưa nưa nay hiếm đâu. Tranh luận một vấn đề nhỏ nhưng liên quan đến chân lý đúng sai thì sao lại nhường nhịn được nhỉ. Mọi người đều bình đẳng trong tranh luận khoa học.
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Trích Brit:
Trước hết câu trả lời cho các ví dụ bạn đưa ra là SAI. Quả thật là như vậy.
1. (Việc) cậu có đồng ý hay không là không quan trọng.
Whether you agree or not is not important.
2. Cậu đến muộn làm ông ấy giận đấy.
That you were late made him angry.
3. Cậu ta có nói điều đó hay không tôi không quan tâm.
I don''''t care whether he said that or not/ Whether he said that or not, I don''''t care.
Nếu Brit nói trong 3 ví dụ bạn đưa ra chỉ duy nhất có trường hợp thứ 3 là đúng ngữ pháp bạn nghĩ sao? Bạn hãy đọc kỹ lại các ví dụ do chính mình đưa ra bạn sẽ nhận ra lỗi. Trước hết Brit sẽ sửa lại các câu của bạn cho đúng ngữ pháp.
---------------------- Hết trích-----------------------------
Đến nước này rồi thì tôi đành nhờ sách ngữ pháp vậy.
Sách thứ nhất:
Collins Cobuild English Grammar (1990)Trang 339-340, mục 7.90 (nominal use of ''''''''that'''''''' clause) viết như sau:
In formal English, ''''that'''' clauses are sometimes used as the subject of a verb, when people want to comment on a fact.
That I write with a bias is natural.
That man can aspire to and achieve goodness is evident through all history.
In less formal English, ''''the fact'''' plus a ''''that'''' clause is often used as a subject instead of a simple ''''that'''' clause.
The fact that what they are doing is illegal is a trivial irrelevance.
The fact that your boss is actually offering to do your job for you should certainly prompt you toquestion his motives.
.....
Mục 7.92 (nominal use of ''''''''wh-'''''''' clauses) trang 340 viết như sau:
When you want to refer to matter which are not certain or definite, or about which a choice has to be made, you can use clauses beginning with a ''''''''wh-'''''''' word or ''''''''whether'''''''', like the clause used in reported questions. They can be used after prepositions, and as the subject of verbs such as ''''''''be'''''''', ''''''''depend'''''''', and ''''''''matter''''''''.
...the question of who should be President of the Board of Trade.
The State is desperately uncertain about what it wants artists to do.
Whether I went twice or not doesn''''''''t matter.
Whether you think they are any good or not is irrelevant.
Sách thứ hai: ''''''''Understanding and Using English Grammar'''''''' của tác giả B.S. Azar (3rd ed. 1999), chương 12 ( NOUN CLAUSES)
Mục 12.4 (trang 245) có ví dụ sau:
Whether she comes or not is not important to me.
Mục 12.5 (trang 248) có những ví dụ sau:
That she doesn''''''''t understand spoken English is obvious.
That the world is round is a fact.
NB: Hai cuốn sách này hầu như ở hiệu sách nào ở Hà Nội cũng có bán đấy. Những ai đã xa Việt Nam lâu đến mức tự cho là mình giỏi tiếng Anh đến mức đọc tiếng Việt không thông thì nên lên các ELT centres tìm những sách này mà đọc thể nào cũng có đấy.
To imi: tôi có cảm giác là cậu chẳng có hiểu biết gì cả về ngôn ngữ học nói chung và ngữ nghĩa học, ngữ dụng học nói riêng. Điều này không sao vì có lẽ đó không phải là lĩnh vực cậu quan tâm ... and after all you can always say to yourself that ignorance is not a sin. Nhưng không biết hãy dựa cột mà nghe chớ có vội phán càn như Sil đã nhắc nhở cậu rồi đấy. Còn về ngữ pháp tiếng Anh thì có lẽ cậu cũng hãy nên xem lại đi. Ở đâu đó cậu chả thừa nhận là hàng năm nay không đụng gì đến sách ngữ pháp hay từ điển là gì.
To Brit: Làm Mod mà viết ''It''d be great fun to be your Vietnamese translator..'' thì e là Mod tầm thưòng quá (trừ khi imi và Brit là một người). Nếu Brit vẫn say sưa với công việc dịch thuật thì xin hãy dịch những đoạn tôi vừa trích dẫn từ hai uốn sách trên cho một số người nhé. Như vậy chắc sẽ hữu ích hơn.
Hôm nay chữ ký của mình là gì nhỉ?Thôi thì dùng ý của Dwight Bolinger vậy.
Language is a loaded weapon.

Được yeungon sửa chữa / chuyển vào 23:56 ngày 17/10/2003

Yeungon,
The reason why I haven''t entered the debate is simply because to me, English is a practical language. It is meant to be used, spoken, and heard of. Therefore, I always hate engaging myself in such tiny-whiny tiddy bits concerning grammar.
Britney''s examples make perfect sense to me, even if some of her previous examples, you may call ''awkwardly'' laid out, but to me, they make perfect sense, and whether a book says that it''s grammartically wrong or not doesn''t make much difference to me (In this case, I ALSO use a similar sentence structure, don''t you think?) . Infact, I doubt it makes much difference to all English native speakers.
It is in the way you -feel- the language, how you manipulate it is irrelevant. You must feel and think like an English speaker, not like a Vietnamese scholar who is trying to master the language. Until'' you are comfortable to use the language without having to think about structuring sentences, then you''ll ALWAYS be that Vietnamese scholar.
I haven''t discussed English grammar, I must admit, in over 2 years or so. So I always keep in mind that when speaking in this forum, people are going to look upon my sentences, and mayhaps find grammar errors. It happens to the best of us, trust me. During my years of undertaking studies and works in an English speaking country, (I am going to sound like a very big-knob speaking of myself shamelessly, but I feel that now in order to get through to people, you must somehow ''prove'' your self-worth of speaking English. Because apparently, according to you, Brit''s status doesn''t ensure you of her ability to speak English, disregarding her years spent overseas mind you), I have received numerous writing awards. I also have wrecked the library up side down and have read almost nearly every fiction book there is. All my friends, even teachers, who have been been speaking English all their lives cannot distinguish my accent from their own. I -feel- and -think- like an English speaker, I am confident of my ability to speak English, so sometimes when I encounter my own grammar errors, I push them aside and think to myself "Hey, poo happens. No big deal."
I aggree with Brit in locking this thread. It has caused unncessary uproar amongst forum-readers. And over what really? "But" "And" "However". You know what? I am going to use them HOWEVER I want to. It is up to my personal interpretion and all those grammar books can go to hell. My temper is running short and I am afraid, it hurts me dearly to see forum-readers arguing so heatedly. I have no doubt that at one point or another Yeungon, you must have felt a slight poke at your pride, same with imisim. Brit is only trying to help, and as a mod, I feel that she has the right to lock this.
Please..drop it.
P.S: Yeungon, I have no question or doubt of your references and books, BUT keep in mind that grammar changes over the year. If you take a close look at Vietnamese, not all sentences -WE- use are grammartically correct even if we are Vietnamese native speakers. This is the same with English speakers, because they are so confident with their English, feel and think in English, they no longer NEED to use tiddy-bitsy grammar. Even I invent words on my own now, such as ("Ăn iếc gì!"). I can see where all of you are coming from and actually agree with all of you. However, with great disarray, I urge you all to drop it and lock this thread.

Doi la bien kho..

Oh, by the way, language isn''t a loaded weapon.
It is not in the language itself, but what you -say- and -feel- that can be a loaded weapon. Language, meanwhile, remains a mean of communication only.
But of course, I have no place to disagree with anyone famous.
And you surely, must have heard of "Modernism in Literature". Afterall, I''d like to see you argue with Eliot, e.e.cumming, Joyce, Robert Graves, Yeats, Ibsen, Strindberg, oh, I can name so many more of them. (loves of my life!!! ;_; )
Just a cheeky side to me today.
I bid you all a good day again,
Regards,
Sil.

Doi la bien kho..

[QUOTE=Sil:
There was nothing wrong with those words. They were not foul language by any standard. If it fits the bill, why can?Tt we use it?
[QUOTE=yeungon:
I told you to stop making a fool of yourself. Your statement above has proven to everybody that you can''t read and understand what you have read. Show me where Sil has written that I didn''t know what I am talking about? Sil reminded me to cool down although I had been very patience with you. As far as I know, idiotic is an appropriate term for you. You have done nothing but to show your asinine, ignorant behavior.

[QUOTE=yeungon:
Once again, you have proven my point. You can neither read nor understand English. I have not stated that any where in this forum.
[QUOTE=yeungon:
Not only you are an idiot, you are also paranoia. You can?Tt prove your point due to the fact that:
1. You can?Tt read or understand what you have read.
2. You can?Tt think like a native English speaker
3. You will use English in a context as if it is the same as Vietnamese
4. You will only rely on a dictionary definition to define a word and you won?Tt know beyond that.
Therefore, you are suspecting that Britney and imisim is the same person? LOL.
I should take Sil?Ts advice and stay out of this subject because you are getting scarier by the minute.
To Britney,
I will accept your generous offer However, are you sure it''ll be OK, since someone is thinking that you and I are the same person?
Được imisim sửa chữa / chuyển vào 13:38 ngày 18/10/2003

Time for me to step in, I guess.
To the starter of this topic:
I wouldnt comment on the way you criticize other people''''s use of grammar, other people''''s remarks were very true to the mark. I am pretty sure that most of the people in this box have spent a great deal of time living abroad and using English as a daily conversational language, so keep that in mind before you venture to downplay their language ability.
Secondly, as somebode stated above, language is something in your soul, you have to feel it, you cannot stick to a grammar book. forever. Nobody bother to remember grammar rule while they are talking, everything is implied and understood not only by the words but also by the context and the environment in which those words were spoken. There is no definite answer to the meaning of a sentence if you just throw that into our face without describing the situation in which the sentence was used.
I was assuming from the beginning that you were posting this topic with the purpose of achieving the understanding of some sentences in English, but it seems to me that you are trying to twist and turn the opinions of other people, pointing out minor details mistakes in irrelevant posts, and (maybe I am wrong here, I hope) trying to show other readers that the people actively participate in this box are actually beginners in English. If I was wrong, then hopefully this is just an overheated debate and I suggest you all stop for a while to cool down. But ...If I was correct, then I suggest you get the **** out of here before you get burned. You told Britney that she cannot play and blow whistle at the same time? So guess what, I am not ****ing playing with you and I am gonna blow the ****ing whistle if you step over the boundary my friend.
<P><FONT color=red size=5><STRONG><EM>Together, Forever, Always</em></strong></font></p>
Được Damark sửa chữa / chuyển vào 10:22 ngày 18/10/2003

Let this be my last reply to this topic. Not that I am ashamed of myself or anything like that, I just don''t find any interest in it, where all of us are quarelling for kind of trivial mistakes. Iâ?Tm absolutely in favour of Sil, English is a practical language, it will be pointless to take part in this kind of debate.
To yeungon: Yes, I agree with you that your examples are totally correct and I was wrong to doubt it. But there''s one thing you''re completely mistaken and I have no idea why you have such a ridiculous thought that imisim and I are just one person. I am BRITNEY, IMISIM is IMISM. How come you think I''m that kind of discouteous??? I didn''t "vao` hua`" with him. It was just what I had in my mind, whatever you think, I just don''t care.
Finally, I didn''t want to be his Vietnamese translator, my vocabulary in both Vietnamese and English is not enough to be able to do it and I''ve never dreamt of being a translator one day. I said it''d be great fun to be his Vietnamese TEACHER ok?
I''m not gonna click on this topic again. So whatever say, I just don''t care. Keep on with your work. I won''t interupt you and make you feel uncomfortable, irritating, whatever.
Hopefullly, this topic will be helpful to English learners to some extent in the future. I will not lock this topic since yeungon said he''s gonna do sth about it.
Best regards,
Britney.
So close no matter how far... I have you in my heart and nothing else matters...

trying to show other readers that the people actively participate in this box are actually beginners in English.
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I SAY YOU ARE WRONG. I have never had the slightest intention, whatsoever----------------------------------------------------------------
then I suggest you get the **** out of here before you get burned. You told Britney that she cannot play and blow whistle at the same time? So guess what, I am not ****ing playing with you and I am gonna blow the ****ing whistle if you step over the boundary my friend.
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Này Danmark, nói bậy như thế này chẳng phải là không ngoan đâu. Vì hai lý do: 1. Cậu không biết rằng ''''Ngậm máu phun người thì dơ miệng mình trước'''' hay sao??? 2. Cậu thừa biết Brit là fair lady của diễn đàn này, vậy thì cậu nói như vậy không sợ làm Brit đỏ mặt à?
Chữ ký hôm nay sẽ là:
''''Ngậm máu phun người thì dơ miệng mình''''
Được yeungon sửa chữa / chuyển vào 23:30 ngày 19/10/2003

I will be a cat that calls the kettle black for now..Yeungon, THAT sentence seems half finished to me. Infact, if you REALLY want to get technical about it..I don''t even understand what you''re trying to say. You haven''t had the slightest intention..of what? To what?
Your signature is kinda gory..^^ And I agree that no swearing should have been necessary from Damark.
However..Yeungon, if you had some dignity left of a man, I don''t hope for you to change your opinion, you can walk away with your head up high knowing to yourself that people here aren''t any good at English..but please, let this bloodshed stop.
Regards,
Sil.
"Gomen nasai....demo..A****erui Sayuri-san.."

Khẹc khẹc khẹc............ most of you seem to be taking a special interest in proving triumphant over others in English skills, in arguing over trivialities, and finally in refusing to cope with harsh criticism of a kind. Anyway what''s the ultimate goal of this club? To learn from one another, to do sth that constructively contributes to the club no matter how it is done, or what?
Ha.........ha.... sometimes it''s really interesting to stay still and watch people fighting
It''s really useful seeing how you support your argument with such examples, ideas and stuff like that! It''s a real value to me in preparing for a kind of essays that calls for some analysis, argument, etc. Ha.....ha............